Kizuna Omnibus

Talk about Juné Manga titles.

Re: Kizuna Omnibus

Postby mo2468 » Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:04 pm

sun22 wrote:
Well, there were certain... bodily fluids... that got edited out of Blue Sheep Reverie volume 2, recently.

Really?! It's weird, but I also did feel as if something was missing. Do you recall page number, Mo? Thanks!

Chibi-kami, if that's indeed what happened (edit / censorship), what's the explanation? Was it on purpose (e.g., to comply with whatever ""June"=softcore yaoi" strategy you guys might have), or some sort of "accidental" / "technical" thing? Thanks!


It's definitely not a tecnhical thing. The one I noticed (though I've read there are others) is in the last sex scene in the book. Where Lahti is holding Kai and he says, "You understand, don't you?" The counter's been, uh... "cleaned off." It's clear as day in my Japanese tankoban edition of the volume and completely absent in the English one. Doesn't ruin the scene, but it's a little jarring when you know it's supposed to be there and it isn't. =\
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Re: Kizuna Omnibus

Postby sun22 » Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:36 pm

Thanks, Mo! I don't have the original, so cannot compare. But this sounds like a deliberate censorship to me. This scene that Mo pointed out (see about p.164 or so) would look much sexier with "bodily fluids". I actually had no idea that Kai had some "O" there. After "cleaning" that counter up, there's just no way to tell: it's all blurry and not-as-sexy. So, yes, I suspect it actually ruined the scene for me. Does June / DMP realize that by doing that they actually justify the existence of scanlators (i.e., for the licensed titles) - in the eyes of many - as if they cannot bring the original goodness of such a popular title, someone else will?

I really want some explanation re: this from Chibi-Kami or Chibi-Oni. What's the point in rating 18+ AND censoring? People buy 18+ titles with certain expectations. I also wonder whether the original creator is even aware of this.
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Re: Kizuna Omnibus

Postby Lien-Hua » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:57 pm

sun22 wrote:Does June / DMP realize that by doing that they actually justify the existence of scanlators (i.e., for the licensed titles) - in the eyes of many - as if they cannot bring the original goodness of such a popular title, someone else will?

Same goes for changing the dialogue. And the excuse Chibi-oni gave can't be true, otherwise the scanlators would make the same "mistakes" as the publisher's translator; and the don't.

Why are you doing this, dear staff of Juné? ;_;
I keep buying your books myself, only because I hope that every mistranslated dialogue I come across will be the last one. And I didn't even know about the censorship. I don't know what to say anymore...

At least, if you can't offer the "original" versions to the fans, stop hunting the scanlators. There are some of us who want to read the books with the original images/dialogue. :(
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Re: Kizuna Omnibus

Postby ChibiKami » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:32 pm

Before everyone begins getting all up and arms about censorship and translation-and in turn validating scanlations-let's talk about what scanlations are. Scanlators do not have to go through the channels of approval, licensing, and payment<---- (most importantly to the Japanese publishers and to the mangaka themselves), that we do. We are in the publishing business, of course, to bring books to our fans. Every June' book is approved from beginning to end by the Japanese publisher, and by the mangaka themselves. In terms of translations-we do have translation hiccups- however, we do not compare our titles to scanlators, because we are the legal rights holder to the english translations and they are not. We trust our translators to do the best job they can, and so do our editors, but they are not going to go scrounging the internet for translations of material that essentially isn't legal, and possibly incorrect. Mistakes happen-and they happen in scanlations too.

We count on our fans to support us and not to support scans of our licensed english material online. We believe in the yaoi community which is why we don't fervently hunt down every single scan of our books (believe me, that would be a full-time job in and of itself, and who has the time?). The yaoi fans have been without a doubt the most amazing at buying and supporting the english printed versions of their favorite artist or story. We continue to try to make our books better, to make the translations better, and hey-we have to test new translators and editors all the time. Some are better than others, and it's a continuous and evolving process. Publishing is a team process-and we do the best we can with the resources we have. But we do not believe that any way we present a book justifies an illegal scan of it. That's argumentative and also arbitrary depending on who is reading and looking at the material. Everyone has a differing view of what is correct and what isn't.
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Re: Kizuna Omnibus

Postby sun22 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:21 pm

Let's not mingle censorship and translation slips together. I personally believe DMP has one of the best (though not the best) translation of manga among US yaoi publishers, esp. in the recent year or so. Certain other very recent translations from other publishers left me horrified and I spent more time trying to decode their translation rather than enjoying the art or the story. Japanese is a very difficult language to us, and DMP is doing a more or less adequate job, IMO. Re: Pure Heart debate that Lien-Hua mentioned: I might have made same mistakes as the DMP translator, as there's no "unique" translation for many kanji (and esp. kanji combinations), etc.

However, I want the answer to my initial question: what's the reason for deliberate "editing" (which is really censoring out) of an explicit scene in a 18+ edition, in particular that Blue Sheep Reverie 2, p.164, we discussed? Someone (your editor) must have deliberately deleted the depiction of those "bodily fluids" (ruining the whole scene for one too many readers). So, my question is: why and how could he/she do it? It's a very specific question, and I want a specific answer. Giving my support to DMP for such a long time (and which cost me $$$++), and leaving many positive reveiws/comments on your products on Amazon and other places, I believe I'm entitled to some answer. You answered to Lien-Hua, but I'm yet to hear from you on my question.

Re: scanlations - if you start censoring 18+ books, you're essentially saying to your adult fans: go buy my edition for the translation and then also pay $$+ for the import of an original book - to see the actual artwork. So, yeah, fans, please pay double+, just because our editors lack common sense and/or puritans and/or any other reason I'm still waiting for you to disclose. 18+ yaoi is bought not just for the story or pretty faces. I hope that after being for such a long time in this business, you do realize that.
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Re: Kizuna Omnibus

Postby mo2468 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:35 pm

I'm not sure I agree that censorship of this sort (as mentioned above) in any way justifies illegal distribution of scans, raws or scanlations. Seriously, I only noticed the change in BSR because I own the Japanese tankoban for this series, and, people, they aren't expensive to import. They cost about the same amount after import markup and shipping as an English volume of the same manga purchased in a store (manga in Japan is cheaper than here to begin with). I import a lot of BL manga, and not because I can read Japanese (I can't). I buy it because BL isn't a genre you should need to be able to read to follow. The images should lead the story along well enough that anyone can get the gist of them.

I'm not saying I've never read a scanlation, but I'm never going to justify taking something for free when a legal copy is available in English, even if it does have edits, mistranslations or censored images. Chibi-Kami is right: scanlators make just as many, if not more, mistakes than the legitimate translations. If you like the series enough to want to own it, you should be willing to buy it. When I see Manga Fox posting scans of the English volumes of Yellow (and yes, they have; and not the scanlations because I know the scanlators stopped that series before the end of volume 1 when it got licensed), I want to scream. I paid good money for those books (twice, since I'm repurchasing the Omnibus editions). What gives anyone else the right to take it for free?
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Re: Kizuna Omnibus

Postby sun22 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:45 pm

I'm not sure I agree that censorship of this sort (as mentioned above) in any way justifies illegal distribution of scans, raws or scanlations. Seriously, I only noticed the change in BSR because I own the Japanese tankoban for this series, and, people, they aren't expensive to import.

1) I never said I support illegal distribution of scans, raws etc.
2) Re: how expensive the import is: it all depends whether the licensed title is in print or not. For out of print titles, the price and esp. shipping can get REALLY expensive. Also, even if it costs roughly the same as a June edition, if there are any deliberate and "concealing" edits made by June to the original artwork (as your BSR2 observation indicates), any serious fan of the book (who's not proficient in Japanese) would still have to pay DOUBLE. And I personally really need to understand the story fully to enjoy the manga, and looking only at images doesn't do it for me. Also, if you only cared for artwork, you'd not be buying June to begin with, and wouldn't even be on this forum probably. All you could have done is buying an original edition.

Re: posting copis of the scans/direct copies of the translated and published manga (Yellow example given by Mo - and MANY more I unfortunately saw "around") is NOT a scanlation (as it doesn't involve any translation), and is illegal and immoral. I think the websites that do that should seriously think about legal and other consequences. They're hosted not in the US, most likely, but I think Google may have a possibility of blocking them from at least inclusion in searches, etc, which hopefully it will do one day.
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Re: Kizuna Omnibus

Postby mo2468 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:10 pm

I didn't claim you "supported" illegal distribution, but you did very clearly state that these acts of "censorship" somehow will "justify the existence" of scanlators for these licensed titles, even if it is to others and not you. I was only making a statement of my own opinion about such a "justification" and was making no claims or assumptions about you.

As for a "serious" fan needing to pay "double," yeah, so what? I did. In fact, I've paid for Yellow three times now (once for the individual English volumes, once for the Japanese omnibus volumes and again now for the English omnibus volumes). I really don't see how big of a deal it is to expect someone who is going to take issue with censoring a little bit of bodily fluid (and I really don't care that it's missing in this scene, I just think it's silly that they chose to edit it out of an 18+ manga) to buy, not necessarily both the English and Japanese, but even just the Japanese tankoban instead. The English licensee isn't getting paid three times for this. It's not like DMP is making out more than once if you buy both editions of the book. Hell, just buy the Japanese edition if you want to make a statement about what you want. When they see their sales going directly to the Japanese publisher they'll take the hint, and in a more constructive way (as opposed to destructive way when people steal the books off the internet instead).

As for books being "out of print" and therefore more expensive, I've yet to have that problem. All of the best, older series out there have been reissued in Japan more than once or are still simply in print there. Most of the books that got their rights reverted back to the artists after Biblos went under got relicensed and reissued, either by Libre or by other publishers. Most of Tateno's catalogue is still in print, and almost all of her yaoi remains in print. Finder Series is still in print. Haru wo Daite Ita is still in print. Kizuna was just reissued in Bunko editions (the ones that DMP is going to release) not more than a couple years ago. Yaoi as a genre isn't all that old. Many of the books are still in print and very affordable in Japan. Maybe you can enlighten me with an example of something you've been unable to find in Japanese at a reasonable price?
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Re: Kizuna Omnibus

Postby sun22 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:26 pm

mo2468 wrote:I didn't claim you "supported" illegal distribution, but you did very clearly state that these acts of "censorship" somehow will "justify the existence" of scanlators for these licensed titles, even if it is to others and not you. I was only making a statement of my own opinion about such a "justification" and was making no claims or assumptions about you."


I never said you made that claim about me, but I also wanted to make sure my opinion about that is clear.

You can pay as much money as you want for your fav series - but I personally have issues with overpaying, and especially supporting censors. Re: why not to buy Japanese edition - as I said, it's because I want a translation. So, this leaves me little choice.

Re: expensive and out-of-print books -you have your definition of "best yaoi" and I of course have my own. A number of Naono Bohra's, Rie Honjoh's, Shin Mizukami's and Ike Reibun's series is out of print, along with a few Kodaka's books I personally like - to name just a few. Type in names of these manga-kas in amazon.co.jp, and you will see numerous examples. Unless you choose super-cheap sea-shipping which literally takes 6 months in some cases and uninsured, it'd take ar least $20 to import one book using EMS. Some of these books will most likely be back in-print in a year or so, but IMO life is too short to wait for 6-month shipping or re-print - and I want my yaoi now.

And anyway, if you do not mind censorship, by all means - do whatever you want with this situation. Buy Japanese only, buy both, pay double or triple for your favs, etc. I personally participate on this thread to get some answers from DMP, as I was under impression they do not censor. I want to know if they actually do that and why, and then I will decide what to do next with that information -as far as my personal purchases or communication are concerned.
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Re: Kizuna Omnibus

Postby Lien-Hua » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:32 pm

mo2468 wrote:Hell, just buy the Japanese edition if you want to make a statement about what you want. When they see their sales going directly to the Japanese publisher they'll take the hint, and in a more constructive way (as opposed to destructive way when people steal the books off the internet instead).

I hoped that the quality of the English versions would improve, but if the best answer ChibiKami can give is "we do not believe that any way we present a book justifies an illegal scan of it", then I guess nothing will ever change.

And because I don't like reading books without paying the creators for their effort either, I'll just follow Mo's advice.
(And now I have an other reason to concentrate more on studying Japanese~)
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